MP3 vs VINYL propaa

DJ VAPOUR (owner of 36 CHAMBERS label) LONG TO READ, BUT VERY USEFULL




long post alert go get a cup of tea

i read the thread about tc playing vinyl now - http://forum.breakbeat.co.uk/tm.asp?m=1969650190

and it tured into quite a large discussion about mp3's and vinyl (yes another one)

throughout that thread i read quite alot of stuff from peeps who are ranting on about it and really dont seem to even begin to know whats going on at the min with vinyl so i thought id post a thread (from a label owner and dj point of view) trying to point out whats (sort of) happening at the min in dnb with regards to vinyl sales and mp3's

before i start posting some issues and facts id like to point out that i love vinyl and have been purchasing vinyl since 1991 i still buy vinyl but hardly anywhere to the extent what i used to i am niether pro vinyl or pro mp3 i use both mediums (allthough when djing cd's are featuring more and more in my sets)

now everyone needs to understand one thing vinyl sales are very bad in dnb at the min every label owner i have spoken to has mentioned to me that sales are bad and getting worse on each release there is still labels that are selling over 1000 units on release but those labels that are would be the first ones to tell you that a few years ago they would be doing between 5000 - 10,000 units on a good release (back in the good old days a shit tune could still hit the 1000 mark quite easyly)

now let me break down the costs and factors you have to go through to release a record (note these prices are from one of our releases you probably could get cheaper or more expensive depending on where you get you stuff done and wh you know to do you favors) i will explain each part as we come to it (these are in order of what you would do)

mastering (now we paid extra here cos we like to attend the mastering we could knock about 50 - 75 quid off if we didnt go but we like to have the input so are happy to pay extra) - this is where your track is taken from your .wav file and cut onto a laquer (same as a dubplate) which the stampers are made from - £207.85

origination (this is the process where they take the laquers and pass a electric current through and via some magic procces they can make a metal stamper from it ready to bosh your tunes out) - £121

test presses - the first presses of you tune to check it sounds ok etc etc (cost rougly a quid each you can get as little as ! (i think) or as many as you like (we got 25) - £26.25

delivery (of tp's) - £5

promos - 315 copies (no you have to order your tunes in bunches of 50 as there is something like a 10% leyway in the pressing proccess as it difficult for th morons at the pressing place to sort out a exact number hence why we have 315) - £163.80

one sheets - those little bits of paper that go in your promos telling you how fucking great the tune is (yes you have to pay some one to put them in unless you want all you promos turning up at your house to put em in yourself then have to pay to get em to the distros again) - £15.75

delivery - (of promos to distros) - £15

labels - £19

final press - 527 copies (yep once again they can count at the pressing plant) - £255.59

sleeves - £52.70

delivery of finals - £15

vat - £156.96

total - 1053.90

NOW as you can see that is quite alot of money (id like to point out that we are on a p&d deal with the distros so that is money that they have spent on our product (and are very kind to do so big up nu urban) so now we owe them that cash which will be recouped from sales before anyone see's some profit)

heres where things start to get interesting

the vinyl sells to the record shops at roughly £3.50+vat per unit (yes this fluctuates on many levels and reasons but thats it )

then the label gets paid approx £2 a unit which needs to recoup costs before anything else. After the manufacturing and promotional costs are paid any remaining money is split 50/50 between the label and artist(s)

you do the maths on that and you will soon realise that its getting to the point now where it is dangerous for labels to even release tunes as if your presales come back shit your not going to be paying the artist alot are you (so they aint gonna work with you again are they?? )

those prices are the actuall prices that we paid on the first release on our label which was "mr mingus" b/w "make em bleed" + "make em bleed breaks remix"

id like to point out that we recieved a very healthy ammount of club play and radio play here is the actuall list of peeps who to my knowledge play one of those tracks out

mr mingus - Fabio, London electricity, A sides, Marcus intalex, Makoto, Goldie, Dj hype, Doc scott and commix. This track has also been played on BBC radio 1, 1xtra, kiss 100 aswell as featuring on the legendary soul:oution radio and a hospital records podcast to boot

make em bleed - Grooverider, Dj hype, Bailey, Randall, Goldie, A sides, Doc scott, Heist, Jamal, Roughcut and Dj vapour himself aswell as radio play on BBC Radio 1, 1xtra and kissfm

not bad you thing thats quite a few good names there playing the track (make em bleed has managed to get on nearly every tape pack thats been released this year by the big raves (slammin , inno , global etc etc ) we also went on l doubles show on 1xtra the week after release and plugged it to shit we made a video for it and also spent hours upon hours spaming up the internet we also sent every uk record shop we could find a a3 poster advertising it we also got tune of the week on doa and a featured release in atm

you would think that we would be sitting pretty on that but after about 6 weeks of being on general release we have only just got past the break even stage on the release with another couple of hundred copies sitting in the distros warehouse (these should eventualy trickle out over the next few months though so we should sell all the copies at some point in the next 6 months maybe)

now im not moaing about not making any money on the release (im just happy to be able to release the tune that we want on the label) im trying to point out that sales on something that has achieved that much attention are still slow as fuck and no ammount of press and promo will change that

i know of several large labels who are getting presales back of 300 final copies these days which is basicly getting to point of not even bothering to release as for 300 copies you are not even going to be able to pay the artist a penny

anyway onto some of the reasons behind this ( i might be right or i might be wrong but lets have a crack anyway)

1 - RECORD SHOPS - where is your nearist one ?? if i want to actually walk into a record shop and buy vinyl im off on the train to reading (25 mins on a fast train and cost me just over a fiver for a return ticket)

alot of people are not even that lucky. record shops are a rare breed these days as hmv thought they could take over music sales from independants when they move into a new town they will delibratley undercut the market to ensure the local competitors go out of business (when hmv moved to my town we had 2 other record shops now we have none)

our local hmv no longer even sells vinyl let alone hardly any dnb cd's. ah but what about buying tunes on the net you say yes i can do that (and do) but still you have to remeber not every one has a pc and not everyone who does actually uses it alot or would trust it with thier card details

when a town has a physical record shop people will go out and buy records from it if its not there then alot of the maybe customers wont go and buy stuff off the net they will just spend thier cash on other things

2 - QUALITY - back in the days (yes those good old days i once again speak of when the grass was allways greener) you could roll a fat one and sit down and listen to artist x's new tune at home and enjoy it as a piece of music whereas these days alot of the dnb (allthough its good) is not something that you would like to listen to at home whilst having a blaze or just chilling out (in the car maybe but i dont see many cars with inbuilt record players) alot of peeps need to realise that if they concentrated on making music as opposed to making a tune that works on the dancefloor then people might take a interest in dnb again and start buying stuff to listen to at home

3 - MP3'S - no not the ones you can purchase but the ones you can get for free think of you 5 most fav labels and then think of where you can buy the mp3's for that label hardly anyone has thier own website let alone shop or outlet to sell mp3 through so yes people will go out and download the tracks for free

look at it like this if supermarkets didnt exist you would have to go out and catch your own food to eat no one would really want to do it but if there is no other place to buy food from what you gonna do eh ??

dj's are a dieing breed these days (probably due to the fact its so difficult to buy fucking records cos there hardly any record shops) so if someone who does not own decks wants to buys a tune they aint gonna order the vinyl are they and if they labels aint selling mp3 then they are gonna fuck right off to soulseek and get it for free

now dont get me wrong here labels are now realising this and have been actually distributing mp3's to mp3 retailers for thier labels but its still early days on mp3 retail its still very difficult to buy cetain labels mp3's and i think in a years time it will be alot better but at the min dnb mp3 is a nightmare as its such a lucky dip to see if you can find what your after

4 - the dubplate circle - so you hear tune x at a rave and want to go out and buy it ok off on the train to the nearist record shop (where was that again) and ask for the new tune you heard to be greeted with "nah man thats on dub it wont be out for a year"

dnb is probably the most backwards of the music scene as every one moans that tunes take to long to come out but then praise the sacred vinyl but hang on if you took the vinyl manufacturing process out labels could release a track as soon as it is finished as opposed to 6 months to a year (or more) after the tune was made

so yes i could make a new tune and instead of waiting a year for the release i could just put it up for sale straight away as a mp3 but no i cant do that as vinyl is god but no hang on you dont want to wait 6 months for it so buy a mp3 but no you dont play cd's so you want the vinyl but you dont want to wait for that but ...............

turning the page

lets have a look at some of the arguments here about vinyl v's mp3

1 - all dj's should play vinyl - wrong all dj's should play cutting edge music and try to the best of thier capablities to be original most night clubs ive been to you would be hard pushed to even see into the dj booth to see what the dj is using and i dont care how amazing your ears are you aint telling the difference between vinyl and mp3 on a shit club sound system (which lets face it most of em are) yes you could hear if the dj plays a utterly shit track made by joe blogs but if a dj is playing out then they should fucking well know better than playing something which aint gonna sound good cos it has a shit mix down most dnb producers are capable of mixing down a tune to a very good standard (most tune just get a boost a 12'000 hz by the mastering engineers these day which is to compensate the top end you would loose when you transfer to vinyl and thats about it)

understand this most people who go out raving are ravers not dj's they dont give a flying fuck what the dj is doing as they are to busy chewing thier own tounge off i rekon if you went to a big night in london and asked every person who paid to get in not even 5% would own a pair of decks they dont give a shit about what the dj is playing music from they only care if the music is good



2 - mp3's kill vinyl - no hmv did a good job at that by pushing most of the independant shops out of business

probably 98% of tunes that get on soulseek and other p2p sites are ripped from vinyl so in reality vinyl is killing vinyl as if you took it out of the circle the ripping crews wouldnt be able to get the vinyl to rip the mp3's from no way you say that cant be right well where else do you think it comes from

3 - but if you want to play tunes you should cut them onto dubplate - erm ok then are you gonna pay for it?? dubplates cost £35 - £50 now i make music as my job but hang on im not making any money off my releases to shout about so where am i getting the money to cut the 5 - 10 new tunes i get sent each week that i want to play from dj bookings?? erm nope i dont charge alot to dj and if a promoter has a tiny budget i will quite happily do it for petrol money dj's do not get paid alot for djing unless your groove or hype your not going to be getting alot so that counts that one out then so i think ill stick with playing cd's then mate





im gonna tie this up here as i could go on for hours and hours about it and i think other peeps should have a say in it all the point im tring to show in all of this is that people need to look at the bigger picture and reaslise that dnb needs to embrace all formats of music sales and stop trying to hold on to vinyl as the only format so much

vinyl will allways be around but if we all hate mp3 cd's and any other kind of format that comes in the future then things are going to get alot worse labels are going to need to embrace new kinds of formats to be able to survive as as fans of the music you should realise this and try to realise that the music needs your support or its not going to progress and build into something bigger


im gonna try and get some other industry guys to have a look at this thread and add a few words as we go along IM HOPING FOR ONCE (allthough i doubt it) WE MIGHT GET SOME SORT OF SENSIBLE DISCUSSION WHICH WILL ENCOURGE LABEL OWNERS TO JOIN IN ON THIS AND VOICE THIER OPINIONS


*disclaimer to my knowledge everything i have written about is true allthough other peeps and other labels may be experiencing different things and by no means is my opinion that of any other labels or person other than myself

also i am posting this as a discussion point hopefully some sort of good will come from it im not posting it to start another fight thread about mp3's v's vinyl or to argue with anyone hopefully i can get across to some peeps the state of affiars (to some extent) at the min


nice one for reading all that waffle and i hope it has helped you get a rough idea of whats going on

mike / vapour @ 36th chamber recordings